The reverse speeds of all of these tanks mean you must step forward progressively, rather than figuring on advancing and reversing on a whim with them as you would with others. True, I had the T-44 in mind when I made that post though. at one point or another, with the severity of this problem varying widely. The issue is that T__ are better than every heavy in game all the way up until the IS-3, and their BR should reflect that. Germany has a p-47 just like the allies? APDS is guaranteed damage, just aim for specific crew one at a time or shoot for modules. For instance: in the M18's case, this is manifest in its far greater bounciness. For the record, I am always sporting a tank only line-up in ground battles, I just hate planes and helis in ground battles. Despite the hype, Allied fighter-bombers are not hypermaneuverable UFOs when they're laden with their payloads--they're easy meat for things like the Bf 109s and La-5s. - If it is a sufficiently big map he will just cap before you even get to see the cap point. Download Free PDF View PDF. Is this being discussed? Even I--a German player myself--am commonly hounded over this, despite presenting a great deal of strong testimony thats based on many years experienc. This is a battle of patience and cunning. I will keep the scope of this topic to relate to BRs 1.0 to 7.0 in RB, with the primary emphasis being on 4.X-5.X. Next is allied CAS which gets thrown out as another massive problem Germany faces, but it really shouldn't be since Germany has objectively the best CAS in the game all the way up to 8.0. The problem is that the faster tank has the advantage of initiative. (well until last update and the introduction of M41). And in realistic they are mainly on maps with japan fighting on one side. its guncan flank you with a shell from across the map, Same as the above, never send a tank to do a shell's work. Mobility: The complaint: One of the most common complaints that is leveled against the nation of Germany is a perceived lack of mobility. They die as soon as literally any heavy pulls up and just the purpose of giving the enemy free RP and SL. The M18's like any vehicle that doesn't get shot. The Panther by contrasthave close to no reverse. It is a medium tank like the Panther II or T-44-100. Sohow exactly do I do that? To believe that mobility is the only thing matters is to ignore almost everything that matters in a match. is getting boosted taking them out requires specific loadouts and concentration, which makes the CAS player very susceptible for enemy fighters, this is further exacerbated by the poor balance among the nations at different br.s. I'll add as a supposition (GE doesn't share the data) that Germany is probably the first nation people pick up to start. Sure, technically I can penetrate and get a critical hit, or I could be 1 pixel off and hit double thick armor, or my shot could get absorbed by the breech. In a 1 on 1 I would just throw a dice and pick one possible option hoping that he will appear there? Probably you should just Okha the last bomb into the target, cause rearming takes too long anyways. The argument is that a more mobile tank has the better "tools", traits call it however you want to exploit this knowledge. This is something that only the brits can do reliably at this BR and you can't just discount it as an advantage. There are major gaps in all the TTs that need to be addressed. And yes theoretically the bigger and slower tank could try the same tactic, just that it would take him much longer to react, he would be easiert to spot and aim at, and you would give the enemy more time to shoot at you when you cross open terrain. You can pen various parts of the of them and can with apcr. As someone who has played all nations, I have had the opportunity to play with and against German tanks. What's clear is how later German vehicles are designed to deal with tanks at long range, making use of frontal armor, penetreation and RoF. Depends on the BR really. Those three qualities are what control the tank's ability. Just an endemic lack of knowledge of what assets are available to the Germans, 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. panzer ii ausf l luchs mit bildern panzer panzer ii. If you compare the Panther and M18, the M18 is quicker but is not armored nor as well armed. I think it's important to call out that there are a lot of different aspects to mobility. And as I've tested myself it was consistent to take out the 2 crew members on the one side of the breach ay 400 meters. Isn't it also truethat many of the people who play the american tree only play the US tree? It's just so effective and has a good size-able ammunition pool. Has 7.1 second reload (slower than 6.7s of the 105 L7 guns), -6 gun depression, and only 17.3 deg/sec traverse, so it doesn't fit gun handling meta. Plus there are only few maps thatfavor this strategy. People like to complain about the cause being UK 6.7, but tanks like the Panther II have almost double the games than any of the UK tanks. Tried to flank with the Tortoise? Just because there would be more open maps doesn't mean we can't have CQC maps. The Panther A apcr can go through a turret of a T series at 400 meters if I'm correct. The majority of the 7.92 German ammunition types go seemingly unused in the game, especially all the high velocity variants of the bullets. The Me 410 B-6/R3 is considerably more competitive than people think. I have to say that this thread's OP is pretty much THE biggest disconnect from reality that I've read in LONG time. Those T-Heavies are redicoulus. The tracks make it immune to long 88 and actually work as spaced armor against HEAT. Germany has a P-47 that lacks bombs and rockets, which means it is not burdened by those as distractions or dead weight in the case of opposing fighters. FRENCH ATGMS ARE NON-EXISTENT. There are things the T series better and the game tends to play to those advantages mord than to the tiger 2s but the differences between the two aren't much trust me on that one. People wildly overstate the extent of this. In which I have to say no, it's not ONLY the Germans that have bad reverse speeds. It has a good gun, but it is about as slow as it gets, not to mention it makes the panthers reverse speed look fast. Mobility is simply king in this game. Allied tanks have a thinner top armor in general than the German and Soviet tanks, which makes a high pen round not a necessary feature to get kills from the air. And no matter what is the br setting whatever times you get a new vehicle even at 8.7 you have to start the whole thing again. While the M18 can potentially be used for flanking regardless of tier--this is true of any vehicle--it is also a vehicle that can be wiped out even by lowly 1.0s. Is this what we might expect at some point? I'd certainly replace the Hs 129B-2/MK 103 if the Bf 110G was a Tier III vehicle. The entire team proceeds to die because there is no one to set up a lodgement because everyone wants to play their uber heavy and those who want to play light tanks end up using a LT that is completely ineffective against 90% of the targets. Denying that problem only makes it worse. I've been playing the Su-100P lately (pretty underrated, but could still use a lower BR to match the regular Su-100) and it baffles me how many pumas I am seeing from 5.7-7.7. More to the point, your initial comment is THE biggest disconnect from reality that I've read in LONG time. There's also the issue of the T__ having 6 crew all very well spaced apart, so if by some miracle I get lucky enough to do damage the T__ will just reverse away at high speed and repair. He just needs to find the right way to flank you. By observation, I guess, a lot of players dont do this. Noone does the same with panthers. But if you miss me or I see that you are aiming at me, then it is easy for me to get in cover. I mean this thing has a chance to kill KT frontally by spamming around the turret ring and it can take out the gun barrel within 2-3 shots.When the M41 of a German player is destroyed, well you can go panther which is not the best when it comes to maneuvering, or perhaps a puma which can get shredded by .50 CAL. Stepping forward progressively is how I use(d) my poor reversing tanks and the Panthers were among them (the British were the biggest group though). East Germnay also has access to the BMP-2 as well. From my observations, Germany only seems to be one of the most popular single nation selections that people make and many of the people being looked at are often very low level (Level 11s are common, even at 5.X). It's strengths clearly outweighs it's burdens when the game is based around city/village structures. Not meta. I wouldn't say its off topic at all, map friendly brawling options fallsintocategory's the suffering community thinks Germany needs and in the upper low MBT department East Germany is suffering as the tanks are missingaltogetherlike some other nationsvehiclesand that right there is the very definition of "Suffering". The only real difference between the 2 is the people playing them. MidCii; Jul . The funny part is that you say thatbut you give absolutely no reasonfor why you saythat. On the other hand, allied planes get the bomb loads because their cannons/mgs are less effective against German meds and heavies. What is the Caernarvon? Arado B-2 with 3x 500kg bomb as light bomber. The T-80B has ok mobility for it's BR (~25HP/T vs ~27+ for other tanks), but still has terrible reverse of -10kph wheras other tanks can go -30kph or more in reverse. As for the Panthers' turret traverse, except for the D variant, all are quite well suited for engagement at medium to long ranges. Jagdtiger? Just an observation maybe its just me. The rest including pz iv and pz 3 is pretty balanced in my opinion. While the M18 can reverse much quicker, it also lurches about far more. He just needs to find the right way to flank you. What about T95? The Panther, by contrast, is reasonably quick for a medium tank, retains decent armor and is vastly better armed. According to this complaint, Germany's mobility is insufficient to be competitive in RB GFs, with the greatest concentration of this complaint being focused on the 5.X range. That's where the Panther gets stuck due to bad low speed mobility. Selling Top German/UK Tank and Plane & US Top plane with many Premium. panzer ii german light tank sdkfz 121 world war photos. (Oh how many times I have shot the IS6 turret from 400m and all I did was turn the gunner yellow) Plus they have things like T44 which are very bouncy to the 88. No, the good players, because we need to play with this.. other 90% of the other players, that only got enough braincells to press W. Just carry, its what I do. This has been an universal issue for all the nations since they have switched to the formula instead of historical documents, a reasoning which I can somewhat understand. All trademarks, logos and brand names are the property of their respective owners. The Panthers' reverse situation is one that's not terribly extraordinary because poor reverse speed is a commonplace of many tanks--particularly those of the British. Isn't it a bit dishonest to completely "forget" to bring out the more negative aspects of the panther? Also hull down does not stop long 88 or 100mm from penetrating you and kill or wipe out your turret crew. question. Yes, but we should be discussing balance based on tanks that are actually in the tech tree. I'll have to talk about CAS soon I suppose. I'm a regular war thunder player if you want to contact me= discord= TelDu3998we also have our own discord server https://dis. In an one on one battle with one cap point andrough, uneven terrain you will lose against the M18 in your panther 8 out of 10 times. Meanwhile, a king tiger hull down has 185mm frontally(with no trolly double layered spots or crazy angles), 100mm on the sides and 80mm on the rear, and it's ammo is stored in the turret for an easy 1 shot. Thus then other nations get the impression that Germany is both OP, but still their players while about wanting better tanks. It would actually give Germany some nice, War Thunder map friendly brawling options, like T-34's, IS-2's, T-54's, as well as some lower BR MBT's with decent armour, like T-55's, T-72's etc. I don't think the hull of the king tiger is worse, it's obviously better, I'm just saying it's not better by a huge margin. 3 . In general, German win rates are in the 40s even at their lowest and this means that they're near the balancing point (the 45-55% range, being within +/-5 of 50%). Your observations are not a statistical fact or some sort of general trend setting. And that brings me to the issues with the economy, the game's economy is soulcrushing, now I do understand that you need people to spend money (and for what it's worth I have), but there is little to no enjoyment for the average player in the game. Well you know what they say, the turtle always wins. I'd recommend not making part of the argument then to begin with, The argument is that a more mobile tank has the better "tools", traits call it however you want to exploit this knowledge. Relative merit is in play here. This is why nobody takes anyone who believes in tygor syndrom seriously. According to the complaint, proof of German suffering is had in German win rates--which are often lower than their Allied peers WRs. Even so, better reverse speed on competing tanks does not in itself put those competing tanks (like M18s), as they can have drawbacks of their own. Meanwhile the M18 will be sitting in the ambush or going around the cap into your back because he know that you will not dare to cap. It depends; the objectives can be just as deadly for lightweights too. Getting ahead is stupidly hard. If it's perfectly fine as a comparison, then why is CQC fighting the rulewhen GJ is designing maps,while we clearly can make it a more interesting battle if every nation can face their strengths and shortcomings on the battlefield. But that doesn't change the fact that the tank have bad reverse speeds,, fit in with all the other bad aspects of the Panther in this game, like bad low speed movement due to the missing regenerative steering. Its not like I am proposing to ram the enemy. Call me when it has the bombs and rockets just like the allies. Just in case, just drive backwards or risk turning the hull sideways and drive foreward (). And 5.7 tanks can pen American tanks. Those things can shrug off even the 10.5 in close combat. Maus at 7.0? And its mo different than tiger 2 players shaking their turret to get a bounce. Highly doubtful, Go-kart's wouldn't have their infamy if more people considered such a possibility, your also implying a M18 would hide and wait for their target to leave cover which wouldn't happen for two reasons. It should be 6.7 or 7.0 at best. Just shoot turret for an easy penetration anywhere within 2km, and watch as the king tigers ammo gives a nice firework display. Powered by Invision Community. By In an one on one battle with one cap point andrough, uneven terrain you will lose against the M18 in your panther 8 out of 10 times. India. So if you fall for him turning the gun and you still shoot the breach rather than the side of the turret thats a player error and isn't much of a arguement. I can go grab the pictures if you'd like as proof. Long range eliminations tend to be how I foil most of the cappers I kill. I tested you 50 cal theory and it can be done but it takes so many rounds and reloads its not an arguing point at all. You can use it, for the Tiger I lovers the way to go. Now the GER 6.7 lineup is missing a proper medium to counter some of the russian meds. The most obvious example of this is that a player can jump directly from the Panzer IIIs at 3.0 to the Tiger H1 at 5.3. Slow vehicle that suddenly appears. A Pz IV F2 can also lol pen a KV-1, Churchill or ARL-44 and probably knock them out with one shot from either front or side. Germany should rely on armor but more often than not it is countered with vehicles that can lol pen. As said above, aircraft carriers don't exist in arcade. I invite others to list other claims of alleged German suffering so that those can be talked about. Is a panther really a good vehicle for flanking? If the team melts, the team melts. While it is true that there were +1.0 uptiers some of the time, it was not perpetual as some people claim. With a fast tank it is easier to get to places and to take advantageous positions. Want Germany to be more competitive at 5.3-6.7? If you do spot him racing between the hills you will have difficulties to shoot him because the time window where he is the ope is rather short. Download Free PDF View PDF. Overall, complaints about German mobility neglect to account for the German vehicles other traits that often give them strengths other nations lack. The Soviet nation has very little at 6.X--almost as few vehicles as the Americans do at 4.X. Also the air tech tree actually is borderline OP too. I never said the hull was bad on the t series i have stated that as long as you don't hit the tracks you pen and the other thread we are in has showed that. While it is true that many people, with all sorts of involvement in other trees, play Germany it is also true that many of the people who play the German tree only play the German tech tree. If it's perfectly fine as a comparison, then why is CQC fighting the rulewhen GJ is designing maps,while we clearly can make it a more interesting battle if every nation can face their strengths and shortcomings on the battlefield. Eh, the significance of this is overstated. Their is a perfect blend of fast paced numbers (Warcurse, Escalation) and slower, more groove-oriented thrash in the vein of Pantera's Cowboys From Hell, in particular Destroy What Destroys You. Get comfy and ambush them,you said it yourself he has five options give him a sixth one he forgot, two places they'll never look behind themselves or above themselves or I guess threeif you count beingfar away. The fast-paced and valiant opener marks a strong, excessive statement right at the beginning, because every detail fascinates: the riffing, the solos, the chorus, pick out whatever you want. And that's just fighting american 6.7 with other 6.7s good luck in 5.7 vehicles when you get uptiered, lol. AMX-13 GETS UPTIERED 6.7? 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. Puma 50mm Panzergranate has pretty low post pen damage on higher tier tanks. they're glass cannons. Scriptures from many world religions, science facts, safety & reminder tips, cuisine, sports, books, art, music, movies, TV. As if the game and the race to the capture point ends the moment they get to it and then it just sits there waiting for the Panther to roll in. Of course it does, but this is not the argument here. Alternatively they could bring in an ground attacker with a better CAS loadout, but in turn be utterly outmatched when it comes to fighting for control of the sky. Been consistent honestly. FRENCH AVIATION TREE IS A JOKE! Many German players will often hang back and camp (which can be good, if done in moderation--Germany gets above average exchange rates this way) but critically, problems arise when these players never do move up. And since most Panther drivers know that, they usually just camp. Same procedure as with Panthers. Both the american 76mm and the russian 85mm will penetrate that front plate if not correctly angled. And Germany has long 88s also at 5.7. Not being able to be constructive in any way seems key to yourself. When I play american tanks I always use the .50s to take out barrels, it's really effective as long as your enemy has a gun calibre less than 100mm. "situational" any map with a rock, wall, or building allows you to take advantage of the stabilizer. He can easily continue flank and pen King Tigers from the side. Japan's OP type 90 has been given an equal. Least I've been setting off ammo in them basically everytime. The T34 where as it has more penetration it has a longer reload and solid shot which recently seems to have suffered a reduced damage output off it round. Like bombing out caps or sniper ridges. It's as hard to shoot a the turret of a tiger 2 as it is to shoot a T series turret. Thus, links were forged between the crime of public nuisance and the tort of private nuisance at an early stage in the development of the common law. Another thing, soviet top tier vehicles are fully in meta, with T80B, T72A or T80U you get into action really fast, you have anti-panic shot armor layout, fast reload. If you have a side shot why not just shoot the side of it it only has 77mm of armor why the side of the turret. Because they know that there will be most probably a trap when they arrive at the cap point. The turret is ok, not the best, but gives the 76mm and 85mm some trouble. And just to be fair, the introduction of M41 to the German tree has improved the situation dramatically. I'd certainly replace the Hs 129B-2/MK 103 if the Bf 110G was a Tier III vehicle. so german jets are not useless compared to their opponents? Noone does the same with panthers. Only salt and betrayal.Thanks for watching!Subscribe for decent content next time (hopefully). I invite others to list other claims of alleged German suffering so that those can be talked about. buy panzer ii amp luchs the world war ii In a case of 1535,9 it was established that an individual who suffered particular damage over and above that inflicted upon the general population could maintain a separate action for damages. Seems many new players fell to this trap. ", Road Cycling, Scale Modeling, RC Tank, Military History. @Loongsheepwell, except that you can just lolpen the entire front with APDS. That's just how a downtier works no matter the battlerating. Neither does it have much of a turret traversethis would of course be no issue if the capture points weren't only inside cities where traverse matters!). His portfolio includes five books and several hundred historical articles.". It's strengths clearly outweighs it's burdens when the game is based around city/village structures. While true a slower tank doesn'tneed totravel very far to find a position that overlooks the positions one wouldplan on exploiting so by the time the fast tanks shows up the slow tankis waiting in its position ready to fire as the fast tank usually has to travel across half the map and the slow tank only has to travel a quarter of the map or less to counter. Germany has a P-47 that lacks bombs and rockets, which means it is not burdened by those as distractions or dead weight in the case of opposing fighters. Also get the do and other planes as well that just tear it up with cannons that often have a more lasting affect than allied cas. All in all, these things boil down to the sort of trade offs that are to be expected. First of all the amount of smoke the projectile generates when it strikes a target is ridiculous. Other nations have a lot of fast backups with good guns, like the []ASU 85. Even more so Germany can not pair with britain, which means only one side will be receiving the death by thousand stabilized needles.USA brings a ton of HEATFS that chew through the Tiger II UPF. In a 1 on 1 I would just throw a dice and pick one possible option hoping that he will appear there? Ok, so you don't agree that it is easier to flank with small and fast vehicles? - Panther armour is easier to use and still ok. No need to angle, just point the front towards the enemy. Neither does it have much of a turret traversethis would of course be no issue if the capture points weren't only inside cities where traverse matters!). In a standard WT match, do I try to command people using the chat to go to certain positions which they won't do? You have the turret, lfp, and anywhere on the hull as long as you don't hit the tracks. He usually has like 5 different options. In general, German win rates are in the 40s even at their lowest and this means that they're near the balancing point (the 45-55% range, being within +/-5 of 50%). But like I've said, this is not an issue affecting only Germany. 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. The real question would be if you can deny the enemy taking the capture point from long ranges, which would be a resounding no. But only at long range. More like genre savvy actuallyI know the score. A T34 hull down has 200-300mm of frontal protection, 150mm-200mm of side protection, and 200mm of rear protection. You can flank it and still fail to pen with many of the guns at this BR. Call me when it has the bombs and rockets just like the allies. But he still requires to go through your turret so mixing it up and not sitting is what's the best option to proceed at those ranges. 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